"I don't know if I should say that's such a one size fits idea of evil or such a individual based view of evil, because I think either works, and both are questionable arguments."
"I don't know the Doctor, so I'm speaking as generally as possible and from a secular point of view. If evil weren't destructive—and I mean particularly destructive and extreme—the term wouldn't be necessary. What's controversial?"
"The banality of evil is a theory that has plenty of flaws, but there is one point that I think it underlines, which is that it can be more a matter of entropy than explosions. There are a lot of systems that are, pretty blatantly, evil, but are also just kind of accepted as how life goes."
Kirei blinks and stares. "A system founded on bureaucrats organizing and facilitating mass murder is still destructive. That's why it's 'evil.' Whether people accept it or not is irrelevant."
He won't let Fitz distract him.
"Anyway, that's obviously not the Doctor's type of evil. Or is it?"
"Even if the Doctor was evil, there's no way in a million years. He finds the idea of filling out basic paperwork too much. When he gets too near anything like bureaucracy, stuff is probably going to end up on fire. Mainly because we only go near them when they're evil, but my point stands."
"He sounds like a little kid," Kirei says. "Isn't he supposed to be maintaining the timeline? There are people like that in my world, but they're just slaves with no free will. It's a horrible fate with no way out—not even death since they're already spirits."
"He can be." It's one of the (many) things Fitz loves about him. He has all the good qualities people apply to kids, that, in his experience, most kids don't actually have, and none of the annoying ones. Alright, also some of the annoying ones. "A lot of it's personality, though I do think some is a bit purposeful, his planet was very into bureaucracy and doing nothing interesting, and, apparently, the Doctor before him was all into planning stuff. Anyway, maintaining the timeline isn't his job. It's something he does to help people."
"I meant it as more of an intellectual state. An intuition that something is 'not right' or 'out of order,' if that makes any sense. Not an emotional affect."
It's important to be clear about these matters before old, boring patterns start to repeat.
"I wouldn't feel anything if you disappeared tonight, nor do I personally care if you want to kill yourself being the Doctor's friend." He probably shouldn't have said that, so he hastily explains: "I think it would be a shame, but I can't actually argue against it if he's all you have to make your life worth living. Or rather I could, and I feel like I'm supposed to as a warden, but as a friend I could still ask 'is that really necessary, or are you just thinking emotionally?'" Purely hypothetical, of course, but the point is: "I don't have to feel sad about your choices to question them."
Is that still too much room for misunderstanding? He'll be even clearer.
"And even if I want bad things to happen to you, that doesn't mean I have to just let them happen."
That makes Fitz smile, shaking his head in slight amusement.
“You know, you can be a good friend, Kirei.” He raises a hand. “Don’t worry, I mean by my standards of what makes a good friend and a good person, which are mostly about choice and action. Not about particular emotion or thinking you get a good feeling out of living a moral life or whatever your definition is.” He wants to make it clear he doesn’t like Kirei because he thinks he’s someone else.
“The thing is, it is just a matter of emotions. But that’s the only way I can think. Figuratively.” He’s perfectly capable of thinking on more ‘logical’ ways. “When I can say, this is the life that makes me happy, I don’t see a reason to chose differently. Because, to me, there’s not a more important way to judge.”
He shrugs. “The Doctor’s a good person, because he does good stuff and cares about that. Obviously, I wouldn’t want to hang around him if he was evil,” as they’ve long established, that would be embarrassing, “But he could chose not to risk his life and spirit to save people and universes, and it wouldn’t change that I care about the part where he’s my friend.”
'A good friend.' At first he thinks Fitz is being sarcastic, but as he goes on, he actually finds himself agreeing. Just because he was born a defective monster doesn't mean he has to act like it.
Not yet, anyway. He's obviously still a time bomb. But as long as he's on this ship, all he can do is delay the inevitable disaster. Not out of hope of salvation or fear of annihilation, but simply because he's morbidly curious to see if he can endure long enough to graduate an inmate and get a deal.
Tik-Tok would call him a miserable slave, but Tik-Tok is just another Gilgamesh trying to manipulate him. He won't fall for it.
"That's why I said I couldn't argue against it if it's all that makes you happy. It's actually logical to me. It'd only be emotional if you were being overly hasty." He honestly can't tell with Fitz.
He still doesn't believe the Doctor is good or that Fitz wouldn't hang around him if he were evil, but he keeps quiet about that for now.
"I do get it. I know it might not seem like it, but I've traveled with him for five years." Or an entire lifetime, these things can be complicated. "I didn't actually walk into the ship and then decided then and there that I wanted to spend the rest of my life like that. Honestly, it took me a pretty long time to warmup to him." His brief smile is nostalgic, with a twist of irony because it's not exactly pleasant irony.
"Which wasn't particularly his fault. I know it's hard to imagine, but I wasn't actually very good at making friends, back then." A little sarcastic, but also completely honest. "I was also way more of a dick. The two were related, yes, but the not having friends bit was more the reason than the consequence. Hell, meeting who you did on that other ship, you probably got a bit of a look at what I was like." The full on evil and cult stuff is new and different in the worst of ways, but the disdainful misanthropy and treating every conversation as a battle to be won...
"Traveling with the Doctor - it saved my life, and it gave me a life worth living."
He shakes his head, coming back to the present. "But, believe me, it took time."
"But you've had a difficult life." It's what the other Fitz explained. "You weren't given many opportunities, so if traveling with the Doctor is the only thing that's made you happy so far, it doesn't mean it's the only way you can ever be happy."
Maybe with hard work, Fitz could change his negative state of mind, develop healthier habits, and become content with life without the Doctor. But maybe not. There do exist some truly hopeless cases: himself, for instance. And he's not convinced Fitz isn't another one.
"Yeah, a lot of it was awful." And difficult, and he has no more interest in putting in the hard work of trying to change his state of mind now than he had interest in putting in hard work and trying to get something different back then.
"But, while basically better in every respect, there's one way that traveling with the Doctor is like being on the Barge, it allows you to experience whole new worlds. Except for real, not made up or the weird society of this ship. You get people here who clearly have never conceived of anything other than how they lived, and so this is all a big revelation. I wasn't that stunted, but a comparison can be made."
"Most of the people here have had terrible lives, but I don't know if it's helpful to compare yourself to them. Everyone has their own unique circumstances and temperament."
He has no idea why Fitz is suddenly talking about other people on the Barge.
"Yeah, luckily I don't have to care about that. I'd say 'except when they try to make it my problem', but I still don't care. But I'm not talking about that. What I mean is - take someone like you, right. Extremely fucking weird lifestyle as child assassin for the Church who thinks that horror films are what could be bad for you, and then you have some period of time where you experience a life where that insane thing didn't happen and you could go 'huh'."
"You mean that breach?" He scoffs and crosses his arms, shaking his head. "You've misunderstood. The Church didn't make me this way. I was always like this, and it's why I became an assassin so young in the first place. No one made me do it. It was quite the opposite, in fact."
Now he understands. Fitz is just trying to change the subject—and it's working.
"It wasn't all I did either. My father originally wanted me to be a scholar, so I also studied and went to university." When he was 12. "After that, I traveled."
And not just on missions to kill mages. He had a privileged life, with a loving father and many opportunities.
"Yeah, okay, you can see how if that's the case it would still be - equally bad, right? If you look at a ten year old and are like, that kid would be a good assassin, the responsible next step is to go, okay, so what can I do to help that no longer be the case."
He shakes his head.
"I'm not saying you wouldn't be fucked up without that, I'm saying that that doesn't have a bearing on whether or not it was wrong to have a kid do that. By which I mean it was definitely wrong."
"I'm sure I could offer up plenty of arguments in support of your point. Which doesn't change my point about it being and insane and fucked up thing that you seem to think isn't a blatant sign of parental failure."
The Church does a lot of things that are wrong, and it doesn't sound like Kirei's dad had been any better.
His expression darkens. "I understand it's easy to look at me and call my father a failure, but I assure you, it's not his fault."
He gives Fitz an icy look and explains, "He was already over fifty years old when I was born. He had no other children, no other hope of an heir. He wanted me to be a scholar, a researcher like himself, but instead I chose to chase war zones and test God. Do you think he was thrilled about that? Do you think he didn't try to control me or tell me 'no?' Do you imagine I was a particularly easy child to deal with? Do you think you'd do any better with such a child?"
He literally cringes, thinking about his past self.
"I just did what I wanted. There was nothing he could do about it, so he saw what he wanted to see because he loved me."
"Well, first off, I wasn't calling your father a failure because I'm looking at you. I said that it was fucked up for him to let a ten year old be a secret assassin for the Church. Which is true, no matter the rest of it. I mean, I don't think I'd do particularly well with a child, which is why I don't have any. There's a lot of responsibilities in having a kid, and I don't find 'having an heir' a compelling point."
In fact, he would list that as a fucked up reason to have a kid, personally.
"Being fucked up doesn't mean he didn't love you. Hell, I don't even think the fact that he constructed a version of you that wasn't overly accurate means he didn't love you, though I don't know if you'd agree with me on that one. Everyone does that, to greater or lesser extent."
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2022-09-12 05:58 pm (UTC)"I don't know if I should say that's such a one size fits idea of evil or such a individual based view of evil, because I think either works, and both are questionable arguments."
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Date: 2022-09-14 03:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-09-14 03:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-09-21 05:21 am (UTC)He won't let Fitz distract him.
"Anyway, that's obviously not the Doctor's type of evil. Or is it?"
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Date: 2022-09-21 05:25 am (UTC)He has to laugh at that.
"Even if the Doctor was evil, there's no way in a million years. He finds the idea of filling out basic paperwork too much. When he gets too near anything like bureaucracy, stuff is probably going to end up on fire. Mainly because we only go near them when they're evil, but my point stands."
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Date: 2022-09-21 05:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-09-21 07:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-09-21 06:06 pm (UTC)He's mostly joking.
"But what do you mean by 'the Doctor before him?' Does he have different incarnations?"
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Date: 2022-09-21 06:08 pm (UTC)He nods.
"Quite a few, I think. Seven, maybe?"
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Date: 2022-09-22 03:59 pm (UTC)"I'm still not convinced he isn't evil. Surely you can understand my concern? Between the ledger, Anji, the other Fitz—"
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Date: 2022-09-22 05:29 pm (UTC)"I don't believe you're actually concerned, which plays some part in questioning your argument."
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Date: 2022-09-22 07:47 pm (UTC)It's important to be clear about these matters before old, boring patterns start to repeat.
"I wouldn't feel anything if you disappeared tonight, nor do I personally care if you want to kill yourself being the Doctor's friend." He probably shouldn't have said that, so he hastily explains: "I think it would be a shame, but I can't actually argue against it if he's all you have to make your life worth living. Or rather I could, and I feel like I'm supposed to as a warden, but as a friend I could still ask 'is that really necessary, or are you just thinking emotionally?'" Purely hypothetical, of course, but the point is: "I don't have to feel sad about your choices to question them."
Is that still too much room for misunderstanding? He'll be even clearer.
"And even if I want bad things to happen to you, that doesn't mean I have to just let them happen."
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Date: 2022-09-22 08:45 pm (UTC)“You know, you can be a good friend, Kirei.” He raises a hand. “Don’t worry, I mean by my standards of what makes a good friend and a good person, which are mostly about choice and action. Not about particular emotion or thinking you get a good feeling out of living a moral life or whatever your definition is.” He wants to make it clear he doesn’t like Kirei because he thinks he’s someone else.
“The thing is, it is just a matter of emotions. But that’s the only way I can think. Figuratively.” He’s perfectly capable of thinking on more ‘logical’ ways. “When I can say, this is the life that makes me happy, I don’t see a reason to chose differently. Because, to me, there’s not a more important way to judge.”
He shrugs. “The Doctor’s a good person, because he does good stuff and cares about that. Obviously, I wouldn’t want to hang around him if he was evil,” as they’ve long established, that would be embarrassing, “But he could chose not to risk his life and spirit to save people and universes, and it wouldn’t change that I care about the part where he’s my friend.”
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Date: 2022-09-23 06:19 am (UTC)Not yet, anyway. He's obviously still a time bomb. But as long as he's on this ship, all he can do is delay the inevitable disaster. Not out of hope of salvation or fear of annihilation, but simply because he's morbidly curious to see if he can endure long enough to graduate an inmate and get a deal.
Tik-Tok would call him a miserable slave, but Tik-Tok is just another Gilgamesh trying to manipulate him. He won't fall for it.
"That's why I said I couldn't argue against it if it's all that makes you happy. It's actually logical to me. It'd only be emotional if you were being overly hasty." He honestly can't tell with Fitz.
He still doesn't believe the Doctor is good or that Fitz wouldn't hang around him if he were evil, but he keeps quiet about that for now.
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Date: 2022-09-23 06:39 am (UTC)"Which wasn't particularly his fault. I know it's hard to imagine, but I wasn't actually very good at making friends, back then." A little sarcastic, but also completely honest. "I was also way more of a dick. The two were related, yes, but the not having friends bit was more the reason than the consequence. Hell, meeting who you did on that other ship, you probably got a bit of a look at what I was like." The full on evil and cult stuff is new and different in the worst of ways, but the disdainful misanthropy and treating every conversation as a battle to be won...
"Traveling with the Doctor - it saved my life, and it gave me a life worth living."
He shakes his head, coming back to the present. "But, believe me, it took time."
no subject
Date: 2022-09-24 12:19 am (UTC)Maybe with hard work, Fitz could change his negative state of mind, develop healthier habits, and become content with life without the Doctor. But maybe not. There do exist some truly hopeless cases: himself, for instance. And he's not convinced Fitz isn't another one.
no subject
Date: 2022-09-24 12:27 am (UTC)"But, while basically better in every respect, there's one way that traveling with the Doctor is like being on the Barge, it allows you to experience whole new worlds. Except for real, not made up or the weird society of this ship. You get people here who clearly have never conceived of anything other than how they lived, and so this is all a big revelation. I wasn't that stunted, but a comparison can be made."
no subject
Date: 2022-09-24 12:46 am (UTC)He has no idea why Fitz is suddenly talking about other people on the Barge.
no subject
Date: 2022-09-24 12:53 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-09-24 01:55 am (UTC)Now he understands. Fitz is just trying to change the subject—and it's working.
"It wasn't all I did either. My father originally wanted me to be a scholar, so I also studied and went to university." When he was 12. "After that, I traveled."
And not just on missions to kill mages. He had a privileged life, with a loving father and many opportunities.
no subject
Date: 2022-09-24 02:06 am (UTC)He shakes his head.
"I'm not saying you wouldn't be fucked up without that, I'm saying that that doesn't have a bearing on whether or not it was wrong to have a kid do that. By which I mean it was definitely wrong."
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Date: 2022-09-24 02:38 am (UTC)Immorality in the name of morality is the whole point of the Executors. It doesn't make any sense, but he's known that for a long time.
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Date: 2022-09-24 02:48 am (UTC)The Church does a lot of things that are wrong, and it doesn't sound like Kirei's dad had been any better.
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Date: 2022-09-24 05:25 am (UTC)He gives Fitz an icy look and explains, "He was already over fifty years old when I was born. He had no other children, no other hope of an heir. He wanted me to be a scholar, a researcher like himself, but instead I chose to chase war zones and test God. Do you think he was thrilled about that? Do you think he didn't try to control me or tell me 'no?' Do you imagine I was a particularly easy child to deal with? Do you think you'd do any better with such a child?"
He literally cringes, thinking about his past self.
"I just did what I wanted. There was nothing he could do about it, so he saw what he wanted to see because he loved me."
His voice is filled with misery and disgust.
no subject
Date: 2022-09-24 05:39 am (UTC)"Well, first off, I wasn't calling your father a failure because I'm looking at you. I said that it was fucked up for him to let a ten year old be a secret assassin for the Church. Which is true, no matter the rest of it. I mean, I don't think I'd do particularly well with a child, which is why I don't have any. There's a lot of responsibilities in having a kid, and I don't find 'having an heir' a compelling point."
In fact, he would list that as a fucked up reason to have a kid, personally.
"Being fucked up doesn't mean he didn't love you. Hell, I don't even think the fact that he constructed a version of you that wasn't overly accurate means he didn't love you, though I don't know if you'd agree with me on that one. Everyone does that, to greater or lesser extent."
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