Fitz shrugs again. "It depends on your standards. If I was judging friendship by hope of tender emotional support, you wouldn't be on the list, but I can talk to you apart art."
You can't just ask someone what friendship means to them, Kirei. Jeez.
Also not the sort of question he's stupid enough to fully answer to a friend who is willing to use things against him.
"It means hanging out with people I like okay. Which isn't a long list. People might not normally annoy you, but not everyone's so lucky. It's not that complicated."
"After that breach, the warden conference room with the inmate ledger appeared. Do you know what your entry says?" He doesn't wait for an answer.
"It says you're a 'very loyal friend.' I asked Anji about it when she was here during the flood. She said if someone's your friend then they're your friend, even if they're not good to you in return."
He scowls, folding his arms again. He hadn't wanted to know what his entry on the inmate ledger said, and this hasn't changed his mind. As for Anji - well.
"If someone's your friend than they're your friend even if they're going through some stuff. Anji thinks she knows so much... And she thinks people should see things the same way she does. I don't go around saying anything about what she thinks a friendship should be. It doesn't balance out like numbers, one bad moment isn't something to be weighed against a good moment to say whether someone's good to you or not."
"Anji isn't currently stuck in space jail with only a cryptic message about friendship to help get her out," Kirei says sensibly.
"That doesn't make her ideas about it right and yours wrong. I don't think it should be treated like accounting either"—not that he knows anything—"but what would you say if one of your friends was being mistreated by one of their other friends?"
"Just give it time. Not this one, but we do end up stuck in space jails pretty often." He's never been one to let a digression go by when he doesn't want to talk about something.
There's an honest answer to Kirei's question, but it's one of those pieces of honesty Fitz keeps carefully away from having to think about himself, let alone sharing it with anyone.
"It all depends on the situation, doesn't it? How I see it, it's always case by case."
"Of course they don't deserve that." That there's no injury to his tone is one of the main signs that he's both being honest, and wasn't expecting what he sees as a switch what they're talking about. After all, they'd started with Anji and her thoughts on his choices. "I assumed you were talking about a fight or maybe making a choice that's not great for everyone or something. If it's consistent abuse, then I'd try to help them leave. And try to help them work through the fact that person is an awful friend."
Truthful, and not something he'd ever apply to a relationship he's been part of.
He looks away. He knows he's abusive himself, which is why he tried to discourage Fitz from seeing him as a friend. It apparently didn't work, so he'll just have to monitor himself and cut the friendship off if it goes too far since Fitz obviously can't be trusted to assert any boundaries.
"I'm well aware the Doctor can be a dick at times, that doesn't make him abusive. For one thing, if he was Anji wouldn't just say that she thinks I agree with him too much. Other friends can also chose to be assholes, but if it was in a way that really bothered me, I'd just leave."
The confidence of someone who fully believes what he's saying.
Kirei doubts Fitz really listens to what Anji has to say about the Doctor's behavior.
He doubts he'll listen to anyone about it.
"Would you?" He doesn't bother to hide his skepticism. "Because Anji told me you wouldn't. What do you think she means when she says you agree with him too much? Do you actually hear what she's saying or only what you want to hear?"
"I would." Admittedly putting that 'just leave' after 'other friends' is doing a great deal of work.
Leaving the Doctor isn't an option. And. Well. That he has nothing to leave the Doctor for is a more literal statement than he chooses to think about. The only part of his 'home' that mattered is gone, and he's wanted by the police across quite a few countries and time zones. He doesn't have other friends. He doesn't have money, or any way of being sure of making some.
Not that that's something he'd worry about, even if he thought it. After all, he's always managed to survive the various times the Doctor has abandoned him.
"Anji isn't the biggest fan of spontaneous trips. She's into organized itineraries and stuff like that. Me, I prefer the Doctor's style." He shrugs. "It's always a matter of trust, really. It's the same when the Doctor's accused of murdering someone, or if he asks me to go and find some stuff out. Okay, that second one is more not trusting me, which isn't unfair."
"Evil is very mysterious, Fitz. It'll save you a thousand times in a row only to suddenly decide it would rather see the look on your face when you realize you've been betrayed."
Kirei smiles.
"That's why you shouldn't make friends with evil people."
"I hope you tried out for your school drama club, Kirei. It'd be a shame if they missed out on a star. Evil isn't any sort of 'mysterious', if it was, it might be less embarrassing. Cruelty, greed, lack of care for others - there's a long list of 'evil' and it tends to be a lot less complicated than 'good'. And, going to be honest, if the Doctor was evil, he wouldn't manage to carry off some sort of long game like that. He can't exactly be called master of delayed gratification. Forget the numerous times he's been tortured, if someone really wanted him to suffer they'd make him wait five minutes before opening a gift."
He loves the Doctor, with all his heart and through times of joy and times of trouble. He'd also say that being locked in a cell with him for more than ten minutes is complete justification for murder.
"And, personally, if I'm saved a thousand times in a row, I'd count that as a pretty good streak."
"Something can be mysterious in one way but banal in another. It's not even a contradiction because you would think evil being so boring and stupid would lessen its appeal—but for some reason it doesn't, judging by the amount of it and how easily it spreads. And even those who aren't boring and stupid can be tempted."
Kirei hasn't even noticed he's spontaneously sharing real, mostly unfiltered thoughts. A rare phenomena.
"Are you sure the Doctor isn't evil in a different way? There are different types. It doesn't always have to come armed with strategies and long term plans."
"I wouldn't think it'd lessen its appeal, because a there are a lot of boring and stupid things people find embarrassingly appealing. Hey, maybe that's your real problem, Kirei, your expectations are off. And, besides, people believe that evil is mysterious and forbidden, and that's another appeal. Especially if you're unhappy in a life of being 'good', and so think that evil could fix what's lacking."
He waves his hand.
"That's changing the terms. We were talking about trust, not about evil."
But why is it appealing? So much so that it was even able to seduce prelapsarian Adam and Eve, who were supposed to have been made good and only known happiness. How did it happen? Where did it come from? That's the mystery.
"We're talking about evil because I said you shouldn't trust it," Kirei says and tilts his head. "Well, I suppose there are a couple things about it you can trust. One is that it'll leave a trail of destruction in its wake, which must be fine for you, at least in the moment, if you're riding ahead of it with him."
He'd initially raised the possibility of the Doctor being evil only to be incendiary, but it's apparently even worse than he thought. Fitz is probably doomed. The current state of affairs can't last. Since the nature of evil is to consume everything around it as fuel, that will likely be Fitz's fate as well, unless the Doctor becomes self-aware enough to stop it.
"I don't know if I should say that's such a one size fits idea of evil or such a individual based view of evil, because I think either works, and both are questionable arguments."
"I don't know the Doctor, so I'm speaking as generally as possible and from a secular point of view. If evil weren't destructive—and I mean particularly destructive and extreme—the term wouldn't be necessary. What's controversial?"
"The banality of evil is a theory that has plenty of flaws, but there is one point that I think it underlines, which is that it can be more a matter of entropy than explosions. There are a lot of systems that are, pretty blatantly, evil, but are also just kind of accepted as how life goes."
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timeasmymeasure
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Date: 2022-09-05 10:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-09-05 10:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-09-05 10:58 pm (UTC)Also not the sort of question he's stupid enough to fully answer to a friend who is willing to use things against him.
"It means hanging out with people I like okay. Which isn't a long list. People might not normally annoy you, but not everyone's so lucky. It's not that complicated."
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Date: 2022-09-05 11:23 pm (UTC)"It says you're a 'very loyal friend.' I asked Anji about it when she was here during the flood. She said if someone's your friend then they're your friend, even if they're not good to you in return."
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Date: 2022-09-05 11:44 pm (UTC)"If someone's your friend than they're your friend even if they're going through some stuff. Anji thinks she knows so much... And she thinks people should see things the same way she does. I don't go around saying anything about what she thinks a friendship should be. It doesn't balance out like numbers, one bad moment isn't something to be weighed against a good moment to say whether someone's good to you or not."
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Date: 2022-09-06 12:30 am (UTC)"That doesn't make her ideas about it right and yours wrong. I don't think it should be treated like accounting either"—not that he knows anything—"but what would you say if one of your friends was being mistreated by one of their other friends?"
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Date: 2022-09-06 04:01 am (UTC)There's an honest answer to Kirei's question, but it's one of those pieces of honesty Fitz keeps carefully away from having to think about himself, let alone sharing it with anyone.
"It all depends on the situation, doesn't it? How I see it, it's always case by case."
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Date: 2022-09-06 03:28 pm (UTC)"You wouldn't tell them they don't deserve to be abused?" he presses intently. "What situation warrants anything other than that as a response?"
He doesn't expect honesty or a firm set of morals from Fitz, but it's still a new level of callousness.
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Date: 2022-09-06 03:37 pm (UTC)Truthful, and not something he'd ever apply to a relationship he's been part of.
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Date: 2022-09-06 04:21 pm (UTC)He looks away. He knows he's abusive himself, which is why he tried to discourage Fitz from seeing him as a friend. It apparently didn't work, so he'll just have to monitor himself and cut the friendship off if it goes too far since Fitz obviously can't be trusted to assert any boundaries.
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Date: 2022-09-06 04:37 pm (UTC)He shakes his head.
"I'm well aware the Doctor can be a dick at times, that doesn't make him abusive. For one thing, if he was Anji wouldn't just say that she thinks I agree with him too much. Other friends can also chose to be assholes, but if it was in a way that really bothered me, I'd just leave."
The confidence of someone who fully believes what he's saying.
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Date: 2022-09-07 04:00 am (UTC)He doubts he'll listen to anyone about it.
"Would you?" He doesn't bother to hide his skepticism. "Because Anji told me you wouldn't. What do you think she means when she says you agree with him too much? Do you actually hear what she's saying or only what you want to hear?"
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Date: 2022-09-07 04:11 am (UTC)Leaving the Doctor isn't an option. And. Well. That he has nothing to leave the Doctor for is a more literal statement than he chooses to think about. The only part of his 'home' that mattered is gone, and he's wanted by the police across quite a few countries and time zones. He doesn't have other friends. He doesn't have money, or any way of being sure of making some.
Not that that's something he'd worry about, even if he thought it. After all, he's always managed to survive the various times the Doctor has abandoned him.
"Anji isn't the biggest fan of spontaneous trips. She's into organized itineraries and stuff like that. Me, I prefer the Doctor's style." He shrugs. "It's always a matter of trust, really. It's the same when the Doctor's accused of murdering someone, or if he asks me to go and find some stuff out. Okay, that second one is more not trusting me, which isn't unfair."
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Date: 2022-09-07 07:55 pm (UTC)There's curiosity but also a hint of disgust. Not at Fitz, but as though the whole concept were somehow a personal affront.
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Date: 2022-09-07 07:58 pm (UTC)Fitz isn't particularly in the habit of trusting people, himself. The Doctor is an exception, that only a few people have come close to.
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Date: 2022-09-07 08:35 pm (UTC)"That's just outward behavior. If he's your best friend and you trust him with your life, shouldn't there be more to it than that?"
He frowns, slightly frustrated with his own ignorance. He knows nothing of this topic and can never hope to understand it.
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Date: 2022-09-07 08:46 pm (UTC)"If you don't base trust off consistent outward behavior, then what could you use?"
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Date: 2022-09-07 09:54 pm (UTC)Kirei smiles.
"That's why you shouldn't make friends with evil people."
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Date: 2022-09-07 10:07 pm (UTC)"I hope you tried out for your school drama club, Kirei. It'd be a shame if they missed out on a star. Evil isn't any sort of 'mysterious', if it was, it might be less embarrassing. Cruelty, greed, lack of care for others - there's a long list of 'evil' and it tends to be a lot less complicated than 'good'. And, going to be honest, if the Doctor was evil, he wouldn't manage to carry off some sort of long game like that. He can't exactly be called master of delayed gratification. Forget the numerous times he's been tortured, if someone really wanted him to suffer they'd make him wait five minutes before opening a gift."
He loves the Doctor, with all his heart and through times of joy and times of trouble. He'd also say that being locked in a cell with him for more than ten minutes is complete justification for murder.
"And, personally, if I'm saved a thousand times in a row, I'd count that as a pretty good streak."
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Date: 2022-09-08 12:44 am (UTC)Kirei hasn't even noticed he's spontaneously sharing real, mostly unfiltered thoughts. A rare phenomena.
"Are you sure the Doctor isn't evil in a different way? There are different types. It doesn't always have to come armed with strategies and long term plans."
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Date: 2022-09-08 01:05 am (UTC)He waves his hand.
"That's changing the terms. We were talking about trust, not about evil."
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Date: 2022-09-12 05:44 pm (UTC)"We're talking about evil because I said you shouldn't trust it," Kirei says and tilts his head. "Well, I suppose there are a couple things about it you can trust. One is that it'll leave a trail of destruction in its wake, which must be fine for you, at least in the moment, if you're riding ahead of it with him."
He'd initially raised the possibility of the Doctor being evil only to be incendiary, but it's apparently even worse than he thought. Fitz is probably doomed. The current state of affairs can't last. Since the nature of evil is to consume everything around it as fuel, that will likely be Fitz's fate as well, unless the Doctor becomes self-aware enough to stop it.
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Date: 2022-09-12 05:58 pm (UTC)"I don't know if I should say that's such a one size fits idea of evil or such a individual based view of evil, because I think either works, and both are questionable arguments."
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Date: 2022-09-14 03:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-09-14 03:25 am (UTC)(no subject)
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