Kirei can well imagine the existential vertigo and discomfiture of being a clone. He can even relate to being evil (or more evil, in his case) in another timeline, but 'empathy' only tends to encourage his sadism. That's why, though someone probably should talk to Fitz about all this, it shouldn't be him. His intentions aren't pure, and they never will be, no matter what he does.
"He'd traveled too, but his problem was that it ended badly," he says and leans lazily on the deck's railing. "Aren't you worried you'll meet the same fate?"
Fitz probably doesn't have enough self-respect to care, which is why he's friends with Kirei.
Fitz has pure intentions far more often than he'd admit, but not so often that he doesn't think it's perfectly possible to lack pure intentions and still not be a complete dick about things. At least it doesn't sound like Kirei knows some of the more important details.
He hates the other Fitz, not that he likes to think of him like that. He's terrified of his fate - the part where he's left behind less than the being evil. But he refuses to let himself get lost in that. Not here and now.
He scoffs.
"I'm pretty sure I know a lot more about his 'problems' than you do. Most of them he brought on himself, and are easy for me to avoid. Which is more embarrassing for him."
He's skeptical that Fitz's confidence about being able to avoid it is entirely warranted, even if he avoids the mistakes of the other Fitz. He could be redeemed and turn 'good' or stay neither good nor evil like he is now, but there's also the possibility he'll make own original mistakes—which would neither prove nor disprove that he's any different from the other Fitz. Anyone can succumb to dark impulses, and it's one of Kirei's few comforts.
"I didn't mean that, though. At least not entirely," he explains. "He told me the Doctor abandoned him and replaced him with you. I won't take a story like that at face value without hearing both sides, but if it's true he did it once, he could do it again."
Evil is embarrassing, yes, and Fitz doesn't see it as coming with enough to recommend it to outweigh that embarrassment. He has some of the same feelings about being 'good', though at least he has seen people who manage that who aren't fully embarrassing, but they're less self-conscious types then he is. But, while perhaps he should, he doesn't really care that the other (first) Fitz had going with his worst impulses.
"He's still sticking with that story, huh? What actually happened is that he died, and I was there and needed help. That's not replacement, and it's not the Doctor's fault he didn't know that he was in a death cult." Both complete lies, but said with full conviction. "It's also not the Doctor's fault that he decided to go off and be evil about it instead of stopping by and having a conversation."
His eyes narrow. He knows Fitz is a habitual liar, so it's just a matter of determining whether this is him lying to himself or deliberately lying to Kirei, and whether these are complete lies or lies with shades of truth. Either way, it makes absolutely no sense.
"What do you mean he died and you were there? Did he really die, or are you saying the Doctor thought he died and somehow made you on accident?" It sounds ridiculous, but that seems pretty par for the course for Fitz's world. He still doesn't believe the Doctor is actually as earnestly oblivious as Fitz is making him sound.
"And why did he say you were programmed to be loyal to the Doctor?"
"We - he was taken hostage by the secret, evil part of the UN's security services." He hates separating them out like this, when the memories are his, too, but, right now, it's more important to construct the story. "Which made him a lot luckier than the Doctor, who was being tortured while this whole 'thing' was happening. Anyway, he got kidnapped by the time traveling death cult and they made - clones is the simplest way to put it. The Doctor rescued me, and would've helped him if he hadn't been dead. Which we didn't know he could come back from."
Large parts of that are true, even if not necessarily arranged in the most 'accurate' way. But no one needs to know about Kode. Besides, if you look at it from the right perspective, the other (first) Fitz had died and the Doctor had only given Fitz his memories and appearance, which isn't the same as having made him.
He raises an eyebrow. "Because he's part of an evil cult?"
Kirei listens closely. It's a reasonably coherent narrative, at least by the standards of Fitz's universe, but that in itself is a little suspicious. Reality is messy and chaotic, and while he's refraining from judging the Doctor, what he's heard from both Anji and the other Fitz (as well as his own cynicism) tarnishes the angelic halo Fitz paints around him.
"He still has his own perspective. He was evil, but not unreasonable. Talking to him wasn't that different from talking to you."
He was waiting for an opportunity to bring that up.
Fitz likes turning experiences into stories, even when he's offering a more honest retelling. Reality is painful and bloody and he prefers to keep at a remove, even if only in memory. And if it's just in memory, why shouldn't it go as he'd prefer to have gone? Especially when he's the only person left to remember it.
"I'm sure he does. Evil people often do, and the ones that do things like, for example, try to recruit people to their evil cult can manage not to sound completely unreasonable. So they can recruit people." The slow and clear method of speaking to someone who might have trouble following simple concepts. The last part does not need to be acknowledged, so he sees no reason to.
"And if you let go of the petty trappings of certain basic activities being 'wrong', maybe you'd manage to find some hobbies that offer you the slightest interest in life instead of having to rely on being a dick."
Fitz doesn't believe that he's sorry, but that's not the part that matters. He doesn't lose his defensiveness, but that's only in rare moments, anyway.
"You're not broken, or if you are, it's not like you're alone there." He shrugs. "So, you like hurting other people and feel empty inside. I'm pretty sure there's a whole cottage industry, there. You're fucked up, and pay attention to the wrong parts, but that's different."
He shakes his head. "I don't need reassurance, nor want it. I only said that in case you see yourself that way too—the way the other Fitz described—and were worried."
"It's not reassurance, it's a point against your drama."
Fitz uncrosses his arms to rub his chin. He hasn't consciously thought about the question before.
"I suppose so. I don't have anything against you and you're not bad company," he shrugs, as he figures it's not a terrible explanation and doesn't admit to too much.
Fitz shrugs again. "It depends on your standards. If I was judging friendship by hope of tender emotional support, you wouldn't be on the list, but I can talk to you apart art."
You can't just ask someone what friendship means to them, Kirei. Jeez.
Also not the sort of question he's stupid enough to fully answer to a friend who is willing to use things against him.
"It means hanging out with people I like okay. Which isn't a long list. People might not normally annoy you, but not everyone's so lucky. It's not that complicated."
"After that breach, the warden conference room with the inmate ledger appeared. Do you know what your entry says?" He doesn't wait for an answer.
"It says you're a 'very loyal friend.' I asked Anji about it when she was here during the flood. She said if someone's your friend then they're your friend, even if they're not good to you in return."
He scowls, folding his arms again. He hadn't wanted to know what his entry on the inmate ledger said, and this hasn't changed his mind. As for Anji - well.
"If someone's your friend than they're your friend even if they're going through some stuff. Anji thinks she knows so much... And she thinks people should see things the same way she does. I don't go around saying anything about what she thinks a friendship should be. It doesn't balance out like numbers, one bad moment isn't something to be weighed against a good moment to say whether someone's good to you or not."
"Anji isn't currently stuck in space jail with only a cryptic message about friendship to help get her out," Kirei says sensibly.
"That doesn't make her ideas about it right and yours wrong. I don't think it should be treated like accounting either"—not that he knows anything—"but what would you say if one of your friends was being mistreated by one of their other friends?"
"Just give it time. Not this one, but we do end up stuck in space jails pretty often." He's never been one to let a digression go by when he doesn't want to talk about something.
There's an honest answer to Kirei's question, but it's one of those pieces of honesty Fitz keeps carefully away from having to think about himself, let alone sharing it with anyone.
"It all depends on the situation, doesn't it? How I see it, it's always case by case."
"Of course they don't deserve that." That there's no injury to his tone is one of the main signs that he's both being honest, and wasn't expecting what he sees as a switch what they're talking about. After all, they'd started with Anji and her thoughts on his choices. "I assumed you were talking about a fight or maybe making a choice that's not great for everyone or something. If it's consistent abuse, then I'd try to help them leave. And try to help them work through the fact that person is an awful friend."
Truthful, and not something he'd ever apply to a relationship he's been part of.
He looks away. He knows he's abusive himself, which is why he tried to discourage Fitz from seeing him as a friend. It apparently didn't work, so he'll just have to monitor himself and cut the friendship off if it goes too far since Fitz obviously can't be trusted to assert any boundaries.
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2022-09-05 03:58 pm (UTC)"He'd traveled too, but his problem was that it ended badly," he says and leans lazily on the deck's railing. "Aren't you worried you'll meet the same fate?"
Fitz probably doesn't have enough self-respect to care, which is why he's friends with Kirei.
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Date: 2022-09-05 04:07 pm (UTC)He hates the other Fitz, not that he likes to think of him like that. He's terrified of his fate - the part where he's left behind less than the being evil. But he refuses to let himself get lost in that. Not here and now.
He scoffs.
"I'm pretty sure I know a lot more about his 'problems' than you do. Most of them he brought on himself, and are easy for me to avoid. Which is more embarrassing for him."
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Date: 2022-09-05 04:42 pm (UTC)He's skeptical that Fitz's confidence about being able to avoid it is entirely warranted, even if he avoids the mistakes of the other Fitz. He could be redeemed and turn 'good' or stay neither good nor evil like he is now, but there's also the possibility he'll make own original mistakes—which would neither prove nor disprove that he's any different from the other Fitz. Anyone can succumb to dark impulses, and it's one of Kirei's few comforts.
"I didn't mean that, though. At least not entirely," he explains. "He told me the Doctor abandoned him and replaced him with you. I won't take a story like that at face value without hearing both sides, but if it's true he did it once, he could do it again."
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Date: 2022-09-05 04:49 pm (UTC)Evil is embarrassing, yes, and Fitz doesn't see it as coming with enough to recommend it to outweigh that embarrassment. He has some of the same feelings about being 'good', though at least he has seen people who manage that who aren't fully embarrassing, but they're less self-conscious types then he is. But, while perhaps he should, he doesn't really care that the other (first) Fitz had going with his worst impulses.
"He's still sticking with that story, huh? What actually happened is that he died, and I was there and needed help. That's not replacement, and it's not the Doctor's fault he didn't know that he was in a death cult." Both complete lies, but said with full conviction. "It's also not the Doctor's fault that he decided to go off and be evil about it instead of stopping by and having a conversation."
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Date: 2022-09-05 05:28 pm (UTC)"What do you mean he died and you were there? Did he really die, or are you saying the Doctor thought he died and somehow made you on accident?" It sounds ridiculous, but that seems pretty par for the course for Fitz's world. He still doesn't believe the Doctor is actually as earnestly oblivious as Fitz is making him sound.
"And why did he say you were programmed to be loyal to the Doctor?"
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Date: 2022-09-05 05:45 pm (UTC)Large parts of that are true, even if not necessarily arranged in the most 'accurate' way. But no one needs to know about Kode. Besides, if you look at it from the right perspective, the other (first) Fitz had died and the Doctor had only given Fitz his memories and appearance, which isn't the same as having made him.
He raises an eyebrow. "Because he's part of an evil cult?"
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Date: 2022-09-05 06:07 pm (UTC)"He still has his own perspective. He was evil, but not unreasonable. Talking to him wasn't that different from talking to you."
He was waiting for an opportunity to bring that up.
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Date: 2022-09-05 06:20 pm (UTC)"I'm sure he does. Evil people often do, and the ones that do things like, for example, try to recruit people to their evil cult can manage not to sound completely unreasonable. So they can recruit people." The slow and clear method of speaking to someone who might have trouble following simple concepts. The last part does not need to be acknowledged, so he sees no reason to.
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Date: 2022-09-05 06:38 pm (UTC)"He used that same tone to make a point. If you were more ambitious, perhaps you could start a cult and recruit people as well."
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Date: 2022-09-05 06:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-09-05 07:09 pm (UTC)It's not a lie, but that doesn't mean it's not manipulative.
"I don't believe what he said about you being a broken robot either, but if you were, I wouldn't mind since I'm broken too."
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Date: 2022-09-05 08:33 pm (UTC)"You're not broken, or if you are, it's not like you're alone there." He shrugs. "So, you like hurting other people and feel empty inside. I'm pretty sure there's a whole cottage industry, there. You're fucked up, and pay attention to the wrong parts, but that's different."
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Date: 2022-09-05 09:28 pm (UTC)He crosses his arms.
"Do you consider us friends?"
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Date: 2022-09-05 09:35 pm (UTC)Fitz uncrosses his arms to rub his chin. He hasn't consciously thought about the question before.
"I suppose so. I don't have anything against you and you're not bad company," he shrugs, as he figures it's not a terrible explanation and doesn't admit to too much.
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Date: 2022-09-05 10:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-09-05 10:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-09-05 10:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2022-09-05 10:58 pm (UTC)Also not the sort of question he's stupid enough to fully answer to a friend who is willing to use things against him.
"It means hanging out with people I like okay. Which isn't a long list. People might not normally annoy you, but not everyone's so lucky. It's not that complicated."
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Date: 2022-09-05 11:23 pm (UTC)"It says you're a 'very loyal friend.' I asked Anji about it when she was here during the flood. She said if someone's your friend then they're your friend, even if they're not good to you in return."
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Date: 2022-09-05 11:44 pm (UTC)"If someone's your friend than they're your friend even if they're going through some stuff. Anji thinks she knows so much... And she thinks people should see things the same way she does. I don't go around saying anything about what she thinks a friendship should be. It doesn't balance out like numbers, one bad moment isn't something to be weighed against a good moment to say whether someone's good to you or not."
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Date: 2022-09-06 12:30 am (UTC)"That doesn't make her ideas about it right and yours wrong. I don't think it should be treated like accounting either"—not that he knows anything—"but what would you say if one of your friends was being mistreated by one of their other friends?"
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Date: 2022-09-06 04:01 am (UTC)There's an honest answer to Kirei's question, but it's one of those pieces of honesty Fitz keeps carefully away from having to think about himself, let alone sharing it with anyone.
"It all depends on the situation, doesn't it? How I see it, it's always case by case."
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Date: 2022-09-06 03:28 pm (UTC)"You wouldn't tell them they don't deserve to be abused?" he presses intently. "What situation warrants anything other than that as a response?"
He doesn't expect honesty or a firm set of morals from Fitz, but it's still a new level of callousness.
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Date: 2022-09-06 03:37 pm (UTC)Truthful, and not something he'd ever apply to a relationship he's been part of.
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Date: 2022-09-06 04:21 pm (UTC)He looks away. He knows he's abusive himself, which is why he tried to discourage Fitz from seeing him as a friend. It apparently didn't work, so he'll just have to monitor himself and cut the friendship off if it goes too far since Fitz obviously can't be trusted to assert any boundaries.
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